Tag: shadier functions

Hi! I read your post on crises (great read). Made me think about how your first and last function together are powerful, how I use the first-last loop, and how refusing to utilize your last can leave you ineffective and feeling lost. Thought I’d write you in depth about ENTPs to help you fill out your theory (I’m an ENTP :>): Ne-Si loop helps an ENTP be relevant. Ne likes to look at things and branch into related ideas (as you know!), but Ne is a random, wispy function. (1/4)

(2/4) Ne will literally take any idea, feeling, thought, and find
connections. If, as an ENTP, I only use Ti and Fe to supplement my Ne,
it means that although my ideas will be solid logically and socially
(that they make sense in and of themselves), they won’t necessarily be
applicable to reality. They won’t help me be effective. Si takes
information in snapshots: bits and pieces that I have memorized within
myself.

(¾) If I’m trying to think of solutions, I will recall some facts:
This memory exists. This gives Ne a place to jump off from, and Ti to
logic against. Because Si is experiential, it helps to predict what
something will BE like. It grounds Ne in something solid to allow it to
generate real world connections. Without Si, ideas float in space, and
without something experiential to reference inside your head, you feel
lost and without grounding (existential crisis).

(4/4) The Ne-Si loop also leads to a richness and novelty of ideas. In
order to continue to experience the rush of new ideas, you need
something to feed your Ne. Constantly having new experiences for Si to
take in and file, leads to a larger Si bank, and ideas more fleshed out
with REALITY. This is why it’s so important for ENTPs to learn by doing
despite being Ns. Bit of a long post, this. Loved your theory; hope you
like this! -Vi of entptyping 🙂

Ah thank you for sharing – this is much simpler and makes a lot more sense that what I was thinking.  I also kind of enjoy grounding yourself in context with actually lying on the floor (a place ENTPs in a crisis often seem to find themselves), since it is pretty much as close as you can be physically to where you want to be mentally.

“Maybe ENTJs would enjoy interior design (using space to create a mood?)” Wow, you’re good! I was asking out of curiousity, I just found out I’m actually an ENTJ. It seems out of character for me, but I’m really into design as a hobby You should see my pinterest I have three interior design boards, one of which is titled ‘atmosphere’ for pictures where I want to recreate the feel of the space . . . I caught the bug from my ESFP mother . . .

Lucky guess ❤

You’ve mentioned Sam Smith being an INTP and exercising his third function through music and songwriting, and yourself being an INFP, exercising yours through this blog; how do you thing an ENTJ would go about it? Just curious.

I think I was talking about 4th functions, but it doesn’t matter, music and MBTI typing use all four functions, for both myself and Sam.

Probably most things can be Fi things, if you are using them to think about your emotions?  But anything where you’re translating your emotions into a creative output is great (acting, music, art, writing).  Also, just listening to other people or reading, etc, and kind of allowing yourself the space to react and think about why and how you’re reacting (name your emotion and wallow in it?) without actually doing anything about it.

ETA: Maybe ENTJs would enjoy interior design (using space to create a mood?  I’m just thinking you have all the same functions as an ESFP, and they are insanely good at this – they think about Fi together with Se in a way that doesn’t even occur to me, being an Si) or entertaining/party planning.  Uses a whole bunch of logistics and planning, but in a way that means you have to be emotionally and physically sensitive as well?

Also, exploring nature and beautiful architecture – which you share with a lot of people, but particularly ENFJs.  Feelings in space!  Feelings about space!

Hey Asked about Robin Wright a few days ago and just noticed you already typed her as ENTJ, which surprised me because i had her as the exact opposite ISFP. My typing was based off the subtlety of some of her acting performances and how introspective she can come across. In what ways can exact opposites differ but seem the same?

Well, ENTJs and ISFPs have all the same functions, they’ve just learned them in a different order.  Technically, if an ENTJ spent a lot of time working on their feelings and physicality (like, say, participated in a lot of acting excercises), they might bear a passing resemblance to an ISFP.  The problem is that the ENTJ will always have the crutch of a strong Te and Ni through which to view the world, which is pretty hard to let go of (and why would you?).

Often what happens with people with well developed 3rd and/or 4th functions is that they’ll look like their opposite, but… confusing.  If you go letter by letter, maybe you’ll be able to tell that you have an S-type, but otherwise that ESTJ looks like an INFP, so maybe they’re an ISFP (Princess Diana)?

Or you have an INTP that’s tells you he’s incredibly emotive and writes about his feelings directly, but still seems like an introverted P-type (Sam Smith).

Or ESTP writers who are conceptually-minded, and spend a lot of time alone but still seem like P types (or TPs) (Jesmyn Ward, Paulo Coelho, Donna Tartt)?

Or people-person ISTPs who get super into the conceptual elements of the acting process (Harvey Keitel).

If you’re going the opposite direction, I’m constantly confusing ISFPs for extraverted N types (Joe Gordon-Levitt, Sophie Dahl).

In all cases, no matter how convincingly they speak the sentiments their opposite type would say, their behaviour is still very much grounded in their original type.

Anonymous said to mbti-sorted:
Hi,
I was just wondering what quirks/type specific characteristics you’ve
noticed with ENTPs. I’ve always thought I was an INFP but started
thinking that Ne might be my Dom function and I think I use Si. I’m
leaning towards ENTP but I want to be more sure and honestly you’re my
most trusted source.

Anonymous said to mbti-sorted:
Sorry, sorry I meant Ti. I’m the one who thought they might be an ENTP.

I’m
sorry it’s taken me so long to get around to answering this.  I
would love to be able to give you a list of ENTP quirks, but
unfortunately I’m completely unable to answer that kind of thing
seriously – I never paid particular attention from the beginning of
typing people, so it’s something I recognize (third function Si), but
can’t really define and list (4th function Te).  I’d have to rewatch a
bunch of video through the lens of my Te, which sounds a lot like work
and as I’m not being paid for this, it’s just not going to happen.

As part of the attempt to give you something substantial, though, I
ended up reading up on existential crises on wikipedia:

(I’m going to cut here, because this is about to get really long.  I mean, really long.)

“An
existential crisis is a moment at which an individual questions the very
foundations of their life: whether their life has any meaning, purpose,
or value.”

At the bottom there was a link to the spiritual crisis:

”…(also
called “spiritual emergency”) is a form of identity crisis where an
individual experiences drastic changes to their meaning system (i.e.,
their unique purposes, goals, values, attitude and beliefs, identity,
and focus) typically because of a spontaneous spiritual experience.”

and also a link to Dan Howell, which has nothing to do with this post, but I found it kind of funny.

The
existential crisis made me think of ENTPs, who like to throw that one
around a lot.  The spiritual crisis reminded me of ESTPs, many of whom
seem to have late onset spiritual epiphanies.  (I’m not trying to claim
that these are the only two types with these crises, just that a
disproportionate number of ESTPs and ENTPs talk about or seem to have
them a lot.)

Neither one is
exactly what I experienced.  I’ve been calling it an existential crisis
for years (I’ve even thrown myself down on the floor a time or two and let me tell you, letting the floor take your weight while it realigns your back actually makes you feel better in a pretty tangible way), but I’ve never actually questioned whether I’ve had any value
or what my purpose was.  My crisis focused topically on spirituality,
but nothing I believed in changed – I just figured out how to define my
beliefs.

To jump around a bit, I’ve been searching a while for how
to best explain Fi, and I think I’ve found it.  The INTJ sister
recognized herself in my analogy and infj-zen couldn’t relate at all, so
if you’re wondering whether you’re ENTP (Fe) or INFP (Fi), this might
help.

Okay, I want you to imagine that as a baby, your fairy
godmother gifts you with an object that will help you make all major
decisions in your life.  That object is…

…a mood ring!

(Yes,
I know.  Is it even reading moods?  Isn’t it reacting to your body
temperature?  One of the many things you have to deal with when you have
Fi is skepticism, both your own and whatever logic-bias everyone around you shares.  Lucky you, you’re only a baby and don’t have to worry
about it until later.  I feel extremely sorry for the 3rd and 4th
function Fis, who grow up with rationality as their guiding light and
have to confront the least rational thing possible later in their teens,
twenties and later.  More on this to come – I’m kind of thinking your
major life crisis arises from the conflict between your 1st and 4th or
2nd and 3rd function pairs.)

To start, you basically go to Fi
kindergarten.  Here is a picture of someone making a face.  This face is
angry.  When you make this face, your mood ring is red.  Do you like
being angry?  (Mood ring stays red.)  Your decision becomes: I will do
the thing to not be angry.  When other people make the face, you also
learn to avoid making them angry.

You learn your primary colours,
your secondary colours, you get some tints tones and shades.  You can
define a huge range of subtle emotions.  The problems start when you get
complicated questions that result in microscopic patterns and
textures. 

Fi is great at “how are you feeling?”  (hunter green!)

It’s not great at, “Do you believe in aliens/ghosts/God/abortion/etc., etc. etc.” (What is this… paisley?  Why are you shifting to argyle?  Are you…?  No!  Stop sparkling!!!  …Je refuse.)

It’s not even great at, “What’s your favourite colour.” (I can’t even with the fractals…)

I
want you to imagine getting a survey meme (mine was an email forward,
which is dating myself – do people even send those anymore?) that asks a
bunch of these kind of questions one after the other.  Your answer to
every single one is “I don’t know.”  This may be kind of frustrating. 
If you don’t know these things, who are you?  Are there people out there
who can actually answer these questions for themselves and why can’t
you?

The answer is that these are complicated questions with many parts, and Fi feels differently about each part – and it feels definitely about each part as well (I’ve never felt like I’ve had control over my beliefs – they’ve always just been. 
I can influence them by taking in new information, but for the large
part, they almost seem like a separate entity from me and I don’t always
like or agree with them).  You need to put your mood ring under a
microscope to catch all the subtleties.  You need to break down your big
questions into smaller questions (they had better be the right
questions, too), and see how it feels about each thing.  If you’re ever
wondering why Fi doms seem moody, well – haha.

The other
answer is that Fi actively resists categorization.  It doesn’t like
being defined, and it doesn’t see things in either/or (you are an
individual!  You can’t extrapolate useful information from a sample of
one!).  Also if you have Ne, it keeps dredging up new possibilities and
exceptions to rules, which doesn’t help.

You know what does like that kind of organization, though? 

That’s right.  Te.

Your
incredibly poorly developed 4th function is actually the thing that is
stopping you from understanding your first function, because as much as
you dislike defining and categorizing, that is exactly what you need in
order to keep using your Fi mood ring to make decisions about your life.

And there you have it – my major crisis, pretty continuously from age 10 to 18 was a vocabulary crisis
while I learned enough words and concepts for the things I felt to be true
but couldn’t explain to come to terms with myself.  And if that sounds stupid, that’s probably why
it doesn’t get its own wikipedia entry.

Back to the ENTPs and the
ESTPs.  The ESTP spiritual crisis I get – you’re used to doing, and
being able to trust implicitly the information gained through your Se,
because it’s sensory and you can verify it. 

And then
suddenly you get hit with Ni (which I jokingly call “the voice of god”,
because my 6th function Ni feels as though it’s coming from outside me
as very certain pronouncements, even though mine only kicks in about
very stupid things), which… suddenly being hit over the head with thoughts that seem to come out of nowhere and can’t really be verified??  I can definitely see late onset Ni as part of the reason for a
spiritual epiphany.  Taking some time with Ni would definitely give a
shape and purpose to a life filled with action.

I’m not
entirely sure how the ENTP existential crisis would work.  If you’re an
Ne teeming with possibilities, I guess you might well be smothered under
their weight and anxious about what to actually do.  Si is the function
that looks backwards, so maybe it helps you list out the things that
actually have given you purpose and meaning?  ??  I don’t know, this one
could use some work.  It’s hard guessing at other people’s brains from
the outside.  Anyway, ENTPs seem to contribute a lot (ENTP work output
is vast) in many, many areas, so maybe part of that is allowing your Si to tell you that you’ve followed through on a lot of your
possibilities and your legacy is secure.

Enh.  Larval theory in larval stage.  I hope any of this was helpful – it’s been interesting to think about.

I test as INFJ and feel like I can identify a lot with this, but at the same time I also identify a lot with INFPs. I’ve taken cognitive function-tests and scored highest on Ni, low on Ne, about 50/50 on Fe and Fi, high on Ti, very low Te and Se and somewhat high on Si. I’m a structured person, so I always type as a Judger. Do you think that unhealthy Ps can become preoccupied with order and stability, and therefore seem like a Js? Also, how do you differentiating INFJs and INFPs when typing? :)

INFPs and ESTJs share the first four functions, so acting in a very structured way is not unfeasible for an INFP.  Either it’s a stress reaction (looks like an unhealthy ESTJ) or a dedicated effort to improve in that area.

Again, INFJs and INFPs have very different body language.  If you watch INTJs and INFJs together, they move very similarly.  INFPs are more like INTPs.  INFJs I can usually pick out by voice patterns, but occasionally they have trained voices and sound a little different, so the physicality works better.

I don’t know if you’ve spoken about this more in depth before, but could you explain what causes someone to act out of shadow functions? Thank you!

For the purpose of this ask, by shadow functions I’m talking about 3rd and 4th functions, not 6-8.  So an ESFJ would take on aspects of an INTP and vice versa.

Two things, basically.  Either you’re being discouraged to be yourself, or you’re being encouraged to compromise.  It’s either a coping mechanism in stressful situations or a method of reaching people with whom you don’t easily communicate.

Hi! How can you tell if someone is operating in their shadow functions as opposed to their dominant ones? What does this look like compared to someone using their true dominant functions? For example, you re-typed a couple of INFJs a few days ago and mentioned their shadow functions made them seem a type they actually weren’t. Thank you!

Okay… I’ll start this with Princess Diana, since she’s the first one I changed for this reason.  I think she’s usually typed as an ISFP or an INFP, but I could tell she wasn’t an N, so I went with ISFP.  The problem is, she doesn’t have ISFP body language (or INFP), and I had the *not right!* thing every time I went by her.  She’s kind of athletic and slightly physically awkward (but not?) in the same way as an ESTJ I know, wears the same kind of clothes, same kind of hair, has the same kind of drive.  In light of that, her body language and speech patterns started making more sense.  For Diana, shadow functions look like being quiet and super aware of her own feelings, but having none of the other characteristics of an Fi-dom.

With the INFJs… there’s always been something weird INFJ-wise about Charles Schulz and Chelsea Clinton, which I thought had to do with them being famous and INFJ.  I guess that operating completely in shadow functions would make them ISFJs, but as with Diana, I could tell they were Ns, not Ss, (and that both had Fe).  When originally typing them, I kept going back and forth on whether they were I or E (Chelsea) and F or T (Charles).  Later I added Devyani Saltzman and Joanna Philbin as INFJs based on my typing of Chelsea and Charles.  After finding a couple more INFJs who were easily typed as INFJs, it was clear that I had two separate patterns going.  Even the comments I was getting back – there was more identification with INFJs who were definitely INFJs.  I think watching Chelsea and Charles, they seem anxious, which is pretty normal for ENTPs, but going through the motions of trying to project calm – INFJs are great at projecting calm, as Fe is their dominant function, and no one knows if they’re anxious or not.  Very clear, intellectual discourse (Chelsea and Devyani), and very quick with the snappy comebacks (all), which isn’t an especially INFJ trait.

To sum that up, I guess people who strongly resemble the characteristics of a type but not… well?  Naturally?  Completely?  Kind of like two people are making the choices for one person – the conscious decisions are rooted in inferior functions, the subconscious decisions in dominant functions.  You still end up with patterns from their actual type coming through.

Tertiary Si.

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about introverted functions… it is really hard for most people to talk about their dominant introverted function, so I’m wondering if anyone would like to participate in kind of a story exchange about either your primary (if you’re up for it!) or secondary introverted function so we can all have a better understanding of what they’re doing.

My particular overly-revealing ramble is about Si, but I need to talk a bit about Fi and Ne to set it up.

In response to the INTP earlier who was talking about his lack of feeling at his father’s murder, I was thinking about how I don’t really react with grief to the death of people I’ve known.  I feel sympathy for other people who are grieving, but I don’t particularly tend to feel much of anything for the deceased party.

I’m also aware that the socially appropriate response is to feel sad.  Other people are sad. Why not me, right?  So, through the power of Ne, I was able to kind of work myself through feeling sad as a possibility while maintaining the knowledge that it wasn’t my first reaction.  If anyone had asked, I could have honestly said I was sad, but the completely honest answer would have been, “it’s complicated.”  I had effectively Schrodinger’s feeling-ed myself, although not particularly consciously (I wouldn’t have been able to describe it in this way, or probably at all).

I used to do this with all kinds of things, too.  For instance, I’d try and give myself nightmares about movies I suspected were scary, even when I didn’t feel scared watching them.  As it turns out (by the power of positive? negative thinking), I did sort of manage to do this, but my actual dreams were usually a lot scarier, let alone my naturally occurring nightmares.

But, okay, back to Si.  

If I look down, I can tell you a story about each item I’m wearing – where I got it, who I was with, if I wore it anywhere special after, etc. etc.  Si attaches memory – sense memory, but also emotional memory – to things (people, places and things, actually, but I mostly identify with things).  Flashbacks, essentially.  Straight-up sensory memory is pretty easy to just databank for reference (e.g. this is cinnamon, which I know because I have tasted cinnamon before).  Memory with emotional association can be nice (e.g. my mom used to make cinnamon sugar when we had french toast for breakfast), or a gigantic pain (e.g. I was humiliated when I wasn’t able to correctly spell cinnamon in front of the class).  Negative emotions are particularly persistent and very good at bringing me back to the original moment I felt them.

My Si story is about the time I remember experiencing the most grief:

When I was little and I grew out of my clothes, my mom would give them away.  Of course, I had memories (and therefore identity) tied up in every piece of them, and it was like ripping myself apart to let her take them.  I would be frantically trying to remember everything important while I let them go, but I was… not very happy about it, to put it mildly.

She got to the point of taking them while I wasn’t around to object, which was possibly even worse.  I’m assuming this is in part what Alzheimer’s is like: having chunks of memory missing without knowing why, just the suspicion that someone is taking things from you and avoiding you when you try to confront them about it.

And then take that level of attachment to my clothes, dial that up to eleven, and there you have the complete and utter agony at being moved out of my room when I was a pre-teen to share with my sister (ugh, terrible, I feel like I’m punching myself in the gut right now – flashbacks are stupid).  And yeah, I’ve never really invested myself in anything in the same way since, not even after I moved back into that room later on.  I think if my house burnt down with all my stuff in it right now, I’d mostly be annoyed at the inconvenience.

So, super melodramatic, but like, devastating at the time.  If you were wondering why [F type] Si people are clutterbugs and can’t get rid of things, especially gifts, even if we hate the actual object, that’s why.  They are a physical manifestation of our memory and they remind us of who we are and who we’ve been.

ETA: looking at this, I think actually that my Fi and Si are just heavily intertwined… the Fi is the emotional memory, the Si is the sense memory.